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Post by axelrod on Apr 27, 2009 15:06:38 GMT -6
Please read my post in its entirety before replying. Reading it partially or going off of the replies will result in you missing the point, trust me.
Let me start by doing my best to answer the following question from as many points of view as possible in order of importance: Why make music in Mario Paint (referring to the SNES version)?
1. It is fun to make songs out of the weird sounds that are included. A viewer can be entertained or impressed by the creativity one uses to make a familiar piece out of simple or silly sounds.
2. The limitations imposed by using the tool present an enjoyable challenge for the composer, and are an excellent way to display one's ingenuity.
3. A good Mario Paint song is not only ear candy, but eye candy. The interface displays a visual representation of the song in a way that is both easy to follow for someone not musically inclined, and that is deep enough for an experienced viewer to notice the thought that went into the song.
4. Mario Paint is easy to use, and songs on it take relatively little time to make (proportional more to song length than any other factor).
These reasons, although all stemming from the SNES Mario Paint, are present in all spin off programs to some degree. From this point on, the term “Mario Paint” refers to all versions of the music-maker (unless otherwise noted). I believe this list is fairly thorough without being too specific. I doubt anyone uses Mario Paint for any reason other than being inspired by someone who does use MP for these reasons. This list will be the basis of my argument. If you find major fault with it, please say so.
Many of you know that I have been using MPC for a very long time (you could probably count my predecessors on your toes). Some of you may also recall that around the invention of dickspeed I was fairly outspoken against it. At the time I thought it butchered all that Mario Paint was founded on. Specifically, reason 2 was broken when the limitations were thrown out the window. It debunked reason 3 by making a fast song very hard for someone, especially someone not musically inclined, to follow with their eyes. And, although this isn't much of a concern with me, reason 4 is gone with the amount of time a high-quality dickspeed composition requires.
However, over time I warmed up to the technique, as evidenced by my latest video. The reason? Reason 1. A dickspeed composition, if you close your eyes, still sounds like Mario Paint. Even with one of Satoshi's soundfonts (which I also had to take time to warm up to), the song is still based on Mario Paint Sounds, so it's okay in my mind.
Speaking of soundfonts, let's look at how these affect the list of reasons. They either partially (Mario Paint Orchestra) or completely (Mario Paint Real) debunk reason 1. However, soundfonts create different sounds in a shell that still resembles Mario Paint, and therefore keep reasons 2-4 intact.
But, what happens when you use dickspeed AND a soundfont? All 4 reasons are null and void. There is not a single major trace of what defines Mario Paint left in your video, sans a few sprites. This issue has come up several times in the past (240 tempo. No soundfonts. 40 minutes, anyone?), but I feel it needs to be given a serious argument and some serious thought. Don't get me wrong, I completely respect the effort and admire the outcome of one of these dickspeed + soundfont pieces. I am not trying to attack anyone.
What I am hoping to receive, though, is an answer to the following question. A serious answer, and not just a vague counterpoint to my overall opinion:
If you're going to acknowledge nothing of what defined the original Mario Paint, that is, use dickspeed to bypass all limitations and use a soundfont so you don't have to deal with any of Mario Paint's sounds, then why are you using Mario Paint Composer?
Like I said, I would appreciate a direct answer to this question if you qualify to answer it.
Please do not be offended by my post or any of my replies (I will likely try to find fallacy with your answer). Again, this is NOT an attack on the users it applies to; just an attempt to clear up something I know has been plaguing the mind of at least one Mario Painter for some time now. Also, PLEASE do not let this post die just because you're concerned that I'm being harsh or that you'll offend someone you are close to if you state your opinion. If this issue isn't acknowledged now, then it won't ever be, and... well you can figure out what comes next.
Please contribute, and, if you qualify, please answer my question.
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Post by eataninja on Apr 27, 2009 15:15:05 GMT -6
Oh god, this is going to be controversial...
My arguments are these:
1. Yes, but even before soundfonts, how many people actually made songs using primarily silly sounds, unless nesessity required it? Answer - TomBobBlender. And people with little skill at the program. Case in point.
2. Dickspeed requires more talent - tempo gaps, heavier low a glitching and volume control, more sounds blending, sustaining notes, etc. Most people expect more from someone who used dickspeed and a soundfont, simply because of the options it gives them. And dickspeed is still an enjoyable challenge, just as soundfonts are enjoyable to toy around witj.
3. Dickspeed can be equally impressive. When you see a wall of notes and think, "HOLY SHIT, HOW DID THEY DO THAT?"
4. So? We enjoy working on songs for longer than, say, an hour, and we enjoy the fact that the program gives more than just simplicity.
*ducks*
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Post by axelrod on Apr 27, 2009 15:24:23 GMT -6
Oh god, this is going to be controversial... My arguments are these: 1. Yes, but even before soundfonts, how many people actually made songs using primarily silly sounds, unless nesessity required it? Answer - TomBobBlender. And people with little skill at the program. Case in point. 2. Dickspeed requires more talent - tempo gaps, heavier low a glitching and volume control, more sounds blending, sustaining notes, etc. Most people expect more from someone who used dickspeed and a soundfont, simply because of the options it gives them. And dickspeed is still an enjoyable challenge, just as soundfonts are enjoyable to toy around witj. 3. Dickspeed can be equally impressive. When you see a wall of notes and think, "HOLY poo, HOW DID THEY DO THAT?" 4. So? We enjoy working on songs for longer than, say, an hour, and we enjoy the fact that the program gives more than just simplicity. *ducks* You missed my point. These are reasons one would bother using Mario Paint SNES in the first place; they are not reasons people shouldn't be using dickspeed and soundfonts in MPC. The point of my post is to figure this out: using dickspeed is such a hassle, and tailoring custom soundfonts makes a Mario Paint shell pointless. So if you want to make intricate, complicated pieces of music why are you using a program designed off of a goofy SNES tool? Using a nice piece of limitless music-making software would make it so much easier AND it would sound better in proportion to the time you put in. |
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Post by _ on Apr 27, 2009 15:34:18 GMT -6
I personally agree with your view on Soundfonts. The point of Mario Paint Composer is to make a song that sounds like it was made in, well, Mario Paint. It seems that a soundfont takes that away.
I'm all for dickspeed as long as you're using the default soundset. However, I don't think you should use dickspeed just for the sake of using it. It should only be used if it's close to impossible to pull off because of the amount of content in a song.
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Post by JohnFreeman on Apr 27, 2009 15:45:10 GMT -6
Yipes! I certainly do qualify.
Well, to me, high tempos and/or soundfonts are a way to make songs in Mario Paint that were previously undoable with the original soundfont and a low tempo. Maybe the song has many long, held out notes (something the original soundfont can't replicate very well), has quiet instruments in the background that can only be replicated with the precision of a high tempo, or the song is simply very fast (much like the percussion in your latest SMRPG song).
I understand your argument, though; Mario Paint Composer had drifted far from its roots. I think the main reason behind this is because the Mario Paint community is is driven by a motivation to constantly improve upon their previous work. High tempos and soundfonts are utilized by composers to get closer and closer to 100% replication of the original song. Thus, Mario Paint has drifted from a simple remixing tool adored by the masses to a hardcore time-sink appreciated by only by a trained Composer's ear.
I think the Hangout itself was a primary motivator of this shift: first of all, it introduced competition to the field. Sure, we had Composer competitions before, but they were voluntary. Now, due to the Hangout, virtually everything released by someone is under scrutiny. Users vote on the song against other users in Song of the Week, users compete for the top slot in Battle of the Composers, and a recently released video goes into consideration in the Rate the Composer series. Not to say competition isn't healthy, but sometimes users' drives to be the best force them to turn to a soundfont and a high tempo.
The second reason is it shifted the main audience of compositions. Many composers decided they would rather have critical acclaim from seasoned veterans of the program than a high view count and 100 "lol awsome" comments in their comment box. Mario Paint has become serious business, and high tempos, soundfonts, and to some degree dynamics, are the key to critical success.
Right now, however, I'm noticing a shift in user appreciation back towards the original soundfont. Much like art has its different movements, Mario Paint has its as well. I daresay original soundfont compositions will be more numerous in the near future. As for high tempos-- I don't see that ever dying. It's here to stay. Unless the average composer shifts his or her composition's main audience from viewers at the Hangout to the general, casual masses again, I don't think it's dying.
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Post by Rusty on Apr 27, 2009 15:47:05 GMT -6
It's because I see Mario Paint Composer as a game and not really a tool. Just like with any game, there is a variety of different types of people playing the game in different ways. You could say those who use dickspeed/soundsets are like those gamers who go through games trying to uncover different secrets, getting all of the items, getting to max level, etc. They're the ones who like to step up their game in any way they can, sort of like those who use dickspeed and soundsets are constantly uncovering new ideas on how to use sounds, and those who make soundsets are finding new ways to go about playing the game. Then there are those who strictly stick to the original soundset, and low tempos. I guess you can compare them to those gamers who like to stick to old school games. Like the old school gamers, who like the challenge, and nostalgic feeling the older games bring, those who work in the original soundset and slow speeds also like the challenge it presents, and the nostalgic value. Then there are those who just play MPC for fun, and aren't worried about being good, and just use MPC because it's fun and easy. You can probably compare those types to the casual gamer, who just plays through a game for enjoyment, and doesn't really try to uncover all the secrets or be a guru at the game. The fact of the matter is that with the incredible quality of compositions using dickspeed and soundsets, a lot of people (and even sometimes myself) tend to forget that MPC is a game, that people play in different ways, just like any Action-Adventure or RPG. Why do I use MPC if I use dickspeed and soundsets, and could get better quality with other programs? It's because I like this game more than the other ones.  Hopefully this makes any sense. XD |
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Post by winterbourne2k on Apr 27, 2009 15:50:08 GMT -6
Why do I use MPC? Because it's there, because I can use it, because I have a hobby to make music, even if it's recreating a theme from an OST.
I don't use programs that don't have limitations like FL studio, because I'm simply not interested enough to use it, nor do I have the computer capacity to try different music making software, so I stick with a simple program such as MPC.
As far as limitations go, would a musician cut three strings off his guitar because he wants to play music under strict limitations, or only play in the C and A minor chords? No, he wants to be creative and innovative without the need for limits.
Part of our desire to use Dickspeed and soundfonts is our intent on matching the OST using this simple kind of program. That in itself is a form of limitation, since the note range is restricted to B flat and C sharp.
MPC was never really about the visual, otherwise you'd just be using the Paint function of the old SNES game. MP Composer is all about the music, so the audio quality has to be good. I don't look at notes scrolling by, I pay more attention to how good the piece sounds, regardless of how fast or slow it is, or which soundfont is used (original, real, orchestra, etc.)
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Post by Admin on Apr 27, 2009 16:05:20 GMT -6
I acknowledge the fact that I do not obey the "REAL Mario Paint definitions" anymore, haven't even since I started. But I'll be damned if anyone, members of MPH included, tells me that I have no skill because I use soundfonts. As I've said time and time again, MIDI makers have a much easier time than MPC users, because they aren't limited to only 15 or 18 instruments, most of which usually end up being useless in the particular song.
I use MPC as my composition program simply because it's easy to use. I've tried using MIDI makers, and it's just unintuitive to me -- even Noteworthy, which everyone always says is "OMG MPC IN MIDI FORM". No, it isn't. A quote from JohnFreeman caught my eye:
FORCES them? And what's so wrong with that? I think it can be agreed that the music made on MPC is about the journey, not the destination -- or in this case, the car you drive in. I like Rusty's "Game, not tool" argument, and WB2k makes an excellent point -- is it really that important to see a bunch of symbols scroll by? To be completely cynical, how many people watch MPC videos and are able to read the music (when the song isn't dickspeed) -- 10%? If that? As I've told my recorders, I don't give a poo if the screen is horrible quality; so long as my 'viewers' (actually listeners, IMO) can see that I'm NOT just playing a MIDI that I might not even have made, it's good enough quality. My important thing is the music.
And don't say
Bullpoo. Have you transcribed pieces written in something other than Am/CM? 'Easy to use', my ass.
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Post by axelrod on Apr 27, 2009 16:11:25 GMT -6
There are some thorough replies here that try to justify how dickspeed and soundfonts are a good thing, as if the point of my post was to debunk their authenticity. It isn't. I have videos that use dickspeed and soundfonts (but not both), so I know how they change everything and can sound cool and are fun to work with.
I just want to know why you're bothering to use MPC for intricate compositions in the first place.
John, you seem to give the impression that because you're used to MPC, you want to see how flexible you can make it by using new techniques. This seems a reasonable answer for me; I hope I read your post right.
I'm going to have to disagree with Rusty's analogy. There is a big difference between video games and Mario Paint: People don't begin to play a video game with the knowledge that they will share their experience with the world. As for your answer, I would like you to be a little more specific. WHY do you like it better than the others. That's all I wanted to know in the first place.
Winter, I think you did a good job at answering my question directly, but the guitar analogy was a bit flawed. The guitar, unlike Mario Paint, wasn't designed as a limited music-making tool. And if Mario Paint was all about the music, then why make a video in the first place? Just put the Mario Paint soundfont into a midi and make a Mario Paint remix in 15 minutes if that's the mentality you want to take.
Tiger, you seem to like MPC because you enjoy using it, which is a fair answer. In regards to you not thinking transcribing songs on MP is easy, I just meant in relation to other Music-making software, provided the song is possible in the first place (yeah, you're gonna have a tough time doing an epic piece on MP, I'll admit). As for the experience in itself, it's only as hard and long as you make it provided your technique and skill. Oh, and MPCers are not limited to 15-18 instruments anymore. Soundfont tailoring lets you put whatever instruments into the song you want, and if you want more than 19 then just take some out that you're not using for one part and put the ones you want in, and record them separately (a lot of work, yes, but still possible).
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Post by eataninja on Apr 27, 2009 16:21:57 GMT -6
Since my original post was off-topic, I'll keep it brief: I use Mario Paint composer because it's fun and easy to use. Programs like Notessimo just aren't intuitive, and the variety gets confusing. Mario Paint is simple, even with dickspeeds. I enjoy using it.
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Post by tojso09 on Apr 27, 2009 16:24:02 GMT -6
I feel that Rusty's answer reflects my own use of Mario Paint Composer. I might not enjoy using it as others, but I love the feeling of accomplishing a tricky part of a song, whether it's a recreation or an original.
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Post by Rusty on Apr 27, 2009 16:31:10 GMT -6
I didn't mean share their knowledge. I ment perfect the game. Like take Pokemon for example. You can just play through the storyline, or you can get all 500+ or whatever amount of Pokemon there are, have a team that's like Lv. 100, and go on WiFi and try to beat everyone.
And as for my reason in detail, I like it better because it has variety. I like the fact that I can go on this Dickspeed+Soundset run like I have been (Caves Boss, Chrono Trigger, etc) and then have the choice to release a song in the original soundset and keep it simple, and have the nostalgia tied to it. I can't keep using the same sounds and stuff for too long, or else I'll get bored. This is why I like playing around with different soundsets all the time. Plus, even with dickspeed, I find MPC way easier to use than something like, say Soundtrack Pro, Garageband, or any other audio program.
Hopefully that's specific enough. ^^
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Post by AdolfoBaez on Apr 27, 2009 16:44:54 GMT -6
The reason I started using the original MP and MPC was because it was fun, u know the goofy instruments, following the pentagram, adapting to the limitations n stuff.
nowadays 50% of the reasons why I still use MPC is because of my subscribers.
The other 50% is because I still enjoy making goofy creative songs that wouldn´t sound as funny-silly if they were made in other music software (FL Studio).
I don´t really use dickspeed in my songs and I only have like 3 or 4 songs with custom soundfont, not because I´m against it, is just because most of the time what I have in mind doesn´t need dickspeed/custom SF.
FL Studio and Acid Pro are my main tools to create my original music, making MPC covers is just a hobby I still enjoy.
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Post by axelrod on Apr 27, 2009 16:46:26 GMT -6
So I guess I failed to recognise that, even after the soundfont tailoring and tediousness of dickspeed, Mario Paint Composer is still a simple music-maker to use in comparison to other programs. Although this doesn't change that it deviates very very far from Mario Paint's roots, it's a solid reason to use MPC on an epic scale, and that's all I was looking for. I would be glad to read other responses as well, though, so please keep the discussion going if you have something new to contribute.
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Post by kacelano on Apr 27, 2009 17:05:43 GMT -6
If you're going to acknowledge nothing of what defined the original Mario Paint, that is, use dickspeed to bypass all limitations and use a soundfont so you don't have to deal with any of Mario Paint's sounds, then why are you using Mario Paint Composer? When I first stumbled across the MPC compositions on YouTube about a year ago, I had no idea off of what the program was based nor of it's inherent limitations. I was merely interested in something that sounded good, but unique, not like a midi or notation program or cover by someone. It was a very light and fun time. As the innovation and invention of dickspeed and soundfonts came to pass, I still liked to listen to the songs produced from them as they still, if not to greater extent, appeased my ears. Before this time, I had downloaded the program, but nothing I did was not as close to what the pre-dickspeed/soundfont compositions had accomplished. However, the SFs made it able for me to produce something that was somewhat decent to post onto YouTube for the sake of it sounding something like the original soundtrack. As I had not known about from what Mario Paint Composer stemmed, I did not think, nor was I accused, that it was what some may call cheating. As things progressed, I learned about what Mario Paint (the SNES version) really was and thus, MPC was based off of. My response to my findings was, 'This it not Mario Paint, it is Mario Paint Composer; two entirely different things'. This satisfied me. However, I had lost my appreciation for compositions that did not use SF/dickspeed and did not sound as good, to me, as the ones that did. As time wore on, I was only concerned with how close the song sounds to the OST not what feeling I got from it. It became a competition of accuracy that I knew I could not win, but I still tried my hardest. My answer to that it isn't like Mario Paint: 'My objective is to create music which is appealing to the ear only, no matter what means I need to use.' I still might give that answer today, but I may instead be, 'I know it isn't like Mario Paint, but did you at least enjoy the song?' Today, I have regained my appreciation for those works of yore, and I miss them. Bomb-omb Battlefield never gets old, it is still one of my favorites. The feeling I get is indescribable, but I can say I feel good, better then what most compositions of today. I want to return to that time. I truly do. Why don't I? For a few foolish reasons: a) I do not possess that undefinable type of skill to do so and b) I do not want to let down the people who expect me to continue what I do. I do not like either of these reasons. I'm sorry for the wall of text and if the answer isn't clearly stated, but it is my answer to the question none the less. |
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Post by axelrod on Apr 27, 2009 17:18:13 GMT -6
Thank you for your answer, Kace. I think this is answered my question well and you stayed true to the tone of my original post. Throwing in a bit of flattery didn't hurt either  I guess the reason I brought this up is because I miss those days too, but I didn't want to resort to snappy remarks, personal attacks, or low ratings in order to get people to consider embracing the nostalgia. |
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bally
Yoshi
Sitting on a swing with my Katamari ♥
Posts: 1,305
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Post by bally on Apr 27, 2009 17:18:52 GMT -6
Now why do I use Mario Paint Composer? Simple, it's fun. I enjoy making some of my favorite songs with the program. It's about the music, y'know? And the thing about music is that there are no rules. I don't have to worry about what can and can't be done. I don't have to worry about the slightest sense of dissatisfaction when I make something with the program. It's fun to do a little work in the program and think, "Damn, that was cool." It's a game, play it for all it's worth. Another thing I think some people aren't willing to admit about MPC is that it's just following the same trail as any other video game series. Just look at the Mario series: is it not a Mario game anymore because Mario can do wall jumps? And the Zelda series: is it not a Zelda game anymore because Link can Z-target? (L-target for you Collector's Edtion owners  ) How about Pokémon: do Pokémon natures ruin what was in Gold & Silver and Red & Blue? No, no, and no. It's just the evolution of a great series, and if you ask me, all of those series are turning out quite successful. Mario Paint Composer is no different. Dickspeed + soundfonts are to Mario Paint as Z-targeting + Hidden Skills are to Twilight Princess. ...and I love Z-targeting. |
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Post by axelrod on Apr 27, 2009 17:26:53 GMT -6
Oh boy. More video game vs MPC analogies. Those just aren't cutting it for me, because as I've said before, video games are designed by developers for the enjoyment of a customer, and one who puts time into a video game does not expect to publish their enjoyment to the world in nearly close a way that MPCers do. A MPCer makes a song for the potential enjoyment of everyone (yes, including oneself).
Also, your answer tells me why you enjoy making music in general, and not why you prefer MPC over superior programs.
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Post by Guru on Apr 27, 2009 18:15:46 GMT -6
I suppose I'm one of the greater offenders, so I'd better post something, huh... So let's see... I say I use soundfonts and dickspeed because I enjoy it and I feel that it often does justice to the original songs, and you're asking why I'm still using Mario Paint Composer as my medium over any superior programs if I'm changing the sounds and pushing the limits this much anyway? Well, I think there's a whole community aspect to MPC which you just don't get with any similar superior programs. If you're going to go public with something like this, ie post songs on YouTube, then I feel that you would benefit from being part of a community like the one we have here. Sure, perhaps the use of soundfonts and dickspeed mean you can't truly call it a Mario Paint Composer community... But I think this is what makes this community so great; there are so many approaches to tackling songs on Mario Paint Composer now that each composer has their own unique style. We are all bound here through Mario Paint Composer, no matter what style or techniques we use. My point? I feel that other programs don't have this sense of community, I don't think they give you the chance to be completely unique. Here, in this community, we can all relate particular styles to different MPCers because they have made themselves unique. That is why I am using Mario Paint Composer. And I'm sorry if I've strayed off-topic... it's kind of late where I am. |
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Post by Pokésonic on Apr 27, 2009 18:22:09 GMT -6
I suppose I'm one of the greater offenders, so I'd better post something, huh... So let's see... I say I use soundfonts and dickspeed because I enjoy it and I feel that it often does justice to the original songs, and you're asking why I'm still using Mario Paint Composer as my medium over any superior programs if I'm changing the sounds and pushing the limits this much anyway? Well, I think there's a whole community aspect to MPC which you just don't get with any similar superior programs. If you're going to go public with something like this, ie post songs on YouTube, then I feel that you would benefit from being part of a community like the one we have here. Sure, perhaps the use of soundfonts and dickspeed mean you can't truly call it a Mario Paint Composer community... But I think this is what makes this community so great; there are so many approaches to tackling songs on Mario Paint Composer now that each composer has their own unique style. We are all bound here through Mario Paint Composer, no matter what style or techniques we use. My point? I feel that other programs don't have this sense of community, I don't think they give you the chance to be completely unique. Here, in this community, we can all relate particular styles to different MPCers because they have made themselves unique. That is why I am using Mario Paint Composer. And I'm sorry if I've strayed off-topic... it's kind of late where I am. Well said, Guru. I totally agree. That said, I've only just recently gotten into dickspeed and such, but I've been using soundfonts for a while now. I guess I can say that when Mario Paint Composer evolves, so do the composers who are willing to go with it. I was kinda slow to go with the flow when all the new stuff started popping up, but I guess you could say it slowly drew me to the new things that made MPC seem even more awesome. I don't regret going with the flow of MPC. |
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) How about Pokémon: do Pokémon natures ruin what was in Gold & Silver and Red & Blue? No, no, and no. It's just the evolution of a great series, and if you ask me, all of those series are turning out quite successful. Mario Paint Composer is no different.
