The Tempo Gap Analysis

theEvilGrimace
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The Tempo Gap Analysis Oct 17, 2008 0:24:16 GMT -6

Quote

Post by theEvilGrimace on Oct 17, 2008 0:24:16 GMT -6

I've created this thread to share my findings on the tempo gaps in Mario Paint Composer's algorithm. Hopefully someone will be able to find a correlation between these now known gaps. I'll keep adding to the list as I find them. I would really like to solve this puzzle.

A few general definitions:
Tempo Gap: In Mario Paint Composer, a segmented, sequential, and variable length of tempos that have relatively no difference in their percieved speeds. The first tempo of each Tempo Gap is called a breaking point.

Breaking Point: An exact (1) tempo that has a clear impact on percieved speed than the tempo(s) before it. I'll abreviate this as BP.

List of found BP's and their Gaps.
1429 ^{1429-1463 unknown difference from previous}
1464 ^{1464-1819, +35 from 1429}
1819 ^{1819-1935, +355 from 1464}
1936 ^{1936-2222, +117 from 1819}
2223 ^{2223-2307, +287 from 1936}
2308 ^{2308-2608, +85 from 2223}
2609 ^{2609-2728, +301 from 2308}
2728 ^{2728-2857, +119 from 2609}
2858 ^{2858-3333, +130 from 2728}
3334 ^{3334-3529, +476 from 2858}
3530 ^{3530-4615, +196 from 3334}
4616 ^{4616-5001, +1086 from 3530}
5001 ^{5001-5455, +385 from 4616}
5455 ^{5455-8751, +454 from 5001}
8572** ^{8572-10000, +3119 from 5455}
10001** ^{10001-12000, +1429 from 8752}
12001** ^{12001-15000, +2000 from 10001}
15001** ^{15001-20000, +3000 from 12001}
20001** ^{20001-60000***, +5000 from 15001}
-1** ^{-60000 - -1, unknown difference from 60000 tempo}
**could possibly be multiple breaking points between the tempos
***60000 is the maximum tempo

As you can see, there are surely BP's yet to be discovered on either end of the spectrum. The lower end will surely become more and more difficult as the BP's become closer together, and finally form a seamless (perhaps?) range. Again, I'll keep adding to this list, and I'll look into a way of formatting it better.

The range inbetween BPs seems ...sporadic at best. I had always ASSumed that the difference steadily grew in between each BP - but the 2858 BP clearly wrongs that theory. Strangely, the 2858 BP has an extremely large effect on the tempo.

This thread will hopefully clear things up. Tell me what you think, or if you can find a correlation.

Lih edit: Updated list with new tempo gaps
Rehd edit: Updated list with more new tempo gaps; 2308 => 2223, and the negative tempo thing
Rehd edit: Updated list with all of the maths.

According to Lihyahm:
249 250
251 251
252 252
253 253
254 254
255 255
256 256
257 257
258 258
259 259
260 260
261 262
263 263
264 264
265 265
266 266
267 267
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270 270
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273 273
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277 277
278 279
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285 285
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299 300
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313 314
315 315
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320 320
321 322
323 324
325 326
327 327
328 329
330 331
332 333
334 335
336 337
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339 340
341 342
343 344
345 346
347 348
349 350
351 352
353 355
356 357
358 359
360 361
362 363
364 365
366 368
369 370
371 372
373 375
376 377
378 379
380 382
383 384
385 387
388 389
390 392
393 394
395 397
398 400
401 402
403 405
406 408
409 410
411 413
414 416
417 419
420 422
423 425
426 428
429 431
432 434
435 437
438 441
442 444
445 447
448 451
452 454
455 458
459 461
462 465
466 468
469 472
473 476
477 480
481 483
484 487
488 491
492 495
496 500
501 504
505 508
509 512
513 517
518 521
522 526
527 530
531 535
536 540
541 545
546 550
551 555
556 560
561 566
567 571
572 576
577 582
583 588
589 594
595 600
601 606
607 612
613 618
619 625
626 631
632 638
639 645
646 652
653 659
660 666
667 674
675 681
682 689
690 697
698 705
706 714
715 722
723 731
732 740
741 750
751 759
760 769
770 779
780 789
790 800
801 810
811 821
822 833
834 845
846 857
858 869
870 882
883 895
896 909
910 923
924 937
938 952
953 967
968 983
984 1000
1001 1016
1017 1034
1035 1052
1053 1071
1072 1090
1091 1111
1112 1132
1133 1153
1154 1176
1177 1200
1201 1224
1225 1250
1251 1276
1277 1304
1305 1333
1334 1363
1364 1395
1396 1428
1429 1463
1464 1500
1501 1538
1539 1578
1579 1621
1622 1666
1667 1714
1715 1764
1765 1818
1819 1875
1876 1935
1936 2000
2001 2068
2069 2142
2143 2222
2223 2307
2308 2400
2401 2500
2501 2608
2609 2727
2728 2857
2858 3000
3001 3157
3158 3333
3334 3529
3530 3750
3751 4000
4001 4285
4286 4615
4616 5000
5001 5454
5455 6000
6001 6666
6667 7500
7501 8571
8572 10000
10001 12000
12001 15000
15001 20000
20001 30000
30001 60000

Last Edit: Oct 26, 2013 2:29:39 GMT -6 by RehdBlob

SonicFan113 Coin Posts: 82	The Tempo Gap Analysis Oct 17, 2008 12:19:14 GMT -6 Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by SonicFan113 on Oct 17, 2008 12:19:14 GMT -6 I think there's the same thing between ~740 and ~800. And between ~990 and ~1050 (But I'm not sure here...)

theEvilGrimace Mushroom Dickspeed Specialist Posts: 152	The Tempo Gap Analysis Oct 17, 2008 12:46:24 GMT -6 Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by theEvilGrimace on Oct 17, 2008 12:46:24 GMT -6 Oct 17, 2008 12:19:14 GMT -6 SonicFan113 said: I think there's the same thing between ~740 and ~800. And between ~990 and ~1050 (But I'm not sure here...) I'll get to testing it shortly. Thanks

lih Normal Permanently BAND FROM CHRISTMAS 69% Posts: 880	The Tempo Gap Analysis Oct 17, 2008 17:02:48 GMT -6 Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by lih on Oct 17, 2008 17:02:48 GMT -6 This is really helpful.

SonicFan113
Coin

Posts: 82

The Tempo Gap Analysis Oct 18, 2008 3:23:33 GMT -6

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Post by SonicFan113 on Oct 18, 2008 3:23:33 GMT -6

Let's say 1176 is your normal tempo.
Make the tempo to 1177 and you'll realize immediately that the tempo is much (a bit) faster than with 1176.
hm... don't know how to explain this.
Put a song with a tempo of 1177 into your arranger twice.
Then the same song twice again, but with a tempo of 1176.
You'll hear the difference.

RehdBlob Admin Posts: 1,983	The Tempo Gap Analysis Oct 19, 2008 19:08:51 GMT -6 Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by RehdBlob on Oct 19, 2008 19:08:51 GMT -6 I remember there was something in between 2308 and 2728 as well, at like 2500 or something. (When I was making Booster's Railroad, setting it at 2400 made it too slow. Changing that to 2700 sped it up... I think)
	..

RehdBlob Admin Posts: 1,983	The Tempo Gap Analysis Dec 24, 2008 13:41:43 GMT -6 Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by RehdBlob on Dec 24, 2008 13:41:43 GMT -6 I have found another BP! Previously... 3530 3530-4616, +672 from 2858 Now, 4616 4616-(), +1086 from 3530 There may be one in between. This 4615 to 4616 jump has a very big effect on tempo.
	Last Edit: Dec 24, 2008 13:42:36 GMT -6 by RehdBlob ..

Pokésonic Mario Has, like, 5 bajillion YT channels When the monstah to clobbah dat dere kirbeh is just right Posts: 1,561	The Tempo Gap Analysis Jan 3, 2009 16:19:34 GMT -6 Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by Pokésonic on Jan 3, 2009 16:19:34 GMT -6 This kind of stuff is why I personally don't like using dickspeed. It's a real pain in the ass to have to figure out these tempo gaps.
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eataninja Guest	The Tempo Gap Analysis Jan 3, 2009 17:07:10 GMT -6 Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Back to Top Post by eataninja on Jan 3, 2009 17:07:10 GMT -6 Not exactly, the Grimace has figured it all out for you.

winterbourne2k Mod That Man with the Hoodie Why so serious? Posts: 777	The Tempo Gap Analysis Jan 3, 2009 18:43:15 GMT -6 Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by winterbourne2k on Jan 3, 2009 18:43:15 GMT -6 I've yet to see a difference, but then again, I probably haven't reached an area where a one point difference in tempo was required.

Guru Normal Almighty Snarf, eh? Posts: 939	The Tempo Gap Analysis Feb 17, 2009 10:04:32 GMT -6 Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by Guru on Feb 17, 2009 10:04:32 GMT -6 I think I've found one, and it's really mucking up the OoT Fire Temple I'm doing... (Not sure what the BP is yet) - 1429 Dang it, 1429 is slightly too fast for this song, but 1428 is way too slow...

KM
Yoshi

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Posts: 1,463

The Tempo Gap Analysis Mar 26, 2009 16:33:31 GMT -6

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Post by KM on Mar 26, 2009 16:33:31 GMT -6

This is helpful. Thanks, TEG!

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Admin Admin What's wrong Banjo, is it tough? Let me know when you've had enough! . Posts: 1,294	The Tempo Gap Analysis Mar 26, 2009 17:21:28 GMT -6 Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by Admin on Mar 26, 2009 17:21:28 GMT -6 At least the other instances of necromancy in this thread had a purpose. This is just absurd, though.
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bally
Yoshi

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Posts: 1,305

The Tempo Gap Analysis Apr 19, 2009 18:45:54 GMT -6

Quote

Post by bally on Apr 19, 2009 18:45:54 GMT -6

Dec 24, 2008 13:41:43 GMT -6 RehdBlob said:

I have found another BP!
Previously...
3530 3530-4616, +672 from 2858

Now,
4616 4616-(

), +1086 from 3530

There may be one in between.
This 4615 to 4616 jump has a very big effect on tempo.

I believe I've discovered a new breaking point, along with a lot of help from Rusty.

5001.

There is a HUGE difference between 5000 and 5001.

Last Edit: Apr 19, 2009 18:47:10 GMT -6 by bally

RehdBlob Admin Posts: 1,983	The Tempo Gap Analysis Apr 19, 2009 22:51:22 GMT -6 Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by RehdBlob on Apr 19, 2009 22:51:22 GMT -6 ^ Wow. I wonder what the graph of the differences in tempo would look like...
	Last Edit: Apr 19, 2009 22:51:48 GMT -6 by RehdBlob ..

Savvn Gameboy Yep. Posts: 443	The Tempo Gap Analysis Apr 20, 2009 8:58:19 GMT -6 Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by Savvn on Apr 20, 2009 8:58:19 GMT -6 2858 2858-3529, +130 from 2728 Yeah I found that one while I was doing Cosmic angel zone from sonic advance. Because of this I had to move the tempo up which made it sound a tad to fast...

bally
Yoshi

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Posts: 1,305

The Tempo Gap Analysis Apr 21, 2009 21:40:47 GMT -6

Quote

Post by bally on Apr 21, 2009 21:40:47 GMT -6

ANOTHER breaking point. This song I've been working on needed a starting tempo of 4800 mathematically and there's a ~10% tempo increase that pushes up to 5120.

Well, instead of that normal change, I have to start at 5001 (a different breaking point) and increase up to the new breaking point I discovered, 5455.

Last Edit: Apr 21, 2009 21:41:41 GMT -6 by bally

bally
Yoshi

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Posts: 1,305

The Tempo Gap Analysis Apr 24, 2009 21:02:02 GMT -6

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Post by bally on Apr 24, 2009 21:02:02 GMT -6

Would someone consider showing a video demonstration of this? I'd be happy to give some .txt files to MaxX Unlimited, seeing as how the song is right on the breaking points. It'd also be easier for people to understand the difference the tempo gaps really make.

Pokésonic
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The Tempo Gap Analysis Apr 25, 2009 7:44:59 GMT -6

Quote

Post by Pokésonic on Apr 25, 2009 7:44:59 GMT -6

Tempo gap problem time: The tempo I'm using for Megaman Starforce 2 Boss battle, 2300, falls in the middle of a tempo gap, and when I increase it to the breaking point, 2728, it's WAAAAAAAAAAAY too fast. Does the problem only show up when recording or something?

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Rusty
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The Tempo Gap Analysis Apr 25, 2009 8:23:37 GMT -6

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Post by Rusty on Apr 25, 2009 8:23:37 GMT -6

Apr 24, 2009 21:02:02 GMT -6 bally said:

Would someone consider showing a video demonstration of this? I'd be happy to give some .txt files to MaxX Unlimited, seeing as how the song is right on the breaking points. It'd also be easier for people to understand the difference the tempo gaps really make.

Maybe I can do it, seeing as I have the files already from recording the actual song. XP I could also make one myself with the Starfox song I'm working on if you need.